Hey guys,
I've been searching for the easiest way to make graphical 2d and 3d games. I researched a few iPhone graphics engines and I wanted to post my findings here, and see what everyone else thought. Basically I've looked really hard at Unity3D and iTorque. I've also glanced at SIO2 and Shiva. Here are my findings (mostly Unity and iTorque stuff). I am almost fully convinced to go with Unity, but feel free to prove me wrong.
Unity
No 2D specific engine / no 2D game builder
Easy to debug on iPhone
No source code. Can't access camera. Fully constrained to the Unity environment. Can't use Objective C
Scripts must be written in Javascript or C# which I don't know (steep learning curve?)
Price: Unity Indie: $199 + iPhone Basic: $399 = $600
There seem to be more games and YouTube videos featuring Unity. Does that mean it's more popular? Easier to use?
$600 version requires Unity splash screen and bigger memory footprint than the expensive version: $3000.
iTorque
3D iPhone engine is still in beta
2D and 3D game engines
Source code included. You can talk to iPhone SDK.
Pain to debug and load on the iPhone (not as easy as unity 1-click)
Price: 2D TGB Pro: $250 + $500 license for the first game. $100 license for the next games. = $750
3D TGE: $150 + $500 license for first game, $100 each additional.
No iPhone Demo
Shiva
Runs on windows only. Not considered
SIO2
Open Source - $0
Doesn't seem to be as full featured as Unity.
We already have posts that discuss this topic in detail.
But my thoughts:
1) New owners of Garage Games suck and lack support, their engine is also slow and buggy. Also they charge a PER GAME fee in addition to the purchase prices. Scripting language is proprietary. They ship the source code because you will need it, they dont fix bugs in the engine, you do.
2) Unity 3D has great support and a great community. It was developed on the MAC and is very easy to use, fast, and has minimal bugs. No royalty, no additional fees, and you can also compile your app for the MAC (and soon Windows), the WEB, and the iPhone. C# is a common language.
3) The free stuff is a mere shell around OpenGL, simply roll your own, no need for the free trash
PS: You're misinformed. 2D games can be done in Unity. And are you kidding me that there is no game builder? Have you even run their IDE? Oh, and GG charges you for TWO engines if you want to do 2D. So its 250 + 250 + 500 + (100 per title), not worth it.
Last edited by Slayer5150; 03-14-2009 at 10:42 AM.
We already have posts that discuss this topic in detail.
But my thoughts:
1) New owners of Garage Games suck and lack support, their engine is also slow and buggy. Also they charge a PER GAME fee in addition to the purchase prices. Scripting language is proprietary. They ship the source code because you will need it, they dont fix bugs in the engine, you do.
2) Unity 3D has great support and a great community. It was developed on the MAC and is very easy to use, fast, and has minimal bugs. No royalty, no additional fees, and you can also compile your app for the MAC (and soon Windows), the WEB, and the iPhone. C# is a common language.
3) The free stuff is a mere shell around OpenGL, simply roll your own, no need for the free trash
PS: You're misinformed. 2D games can be done in Unity. And are you kidding me that there is no game builder? Have you even run their IDE? Oh, and GG charges you for TWO engines if you want to do 2D. So its 250 + 250 + 500 + (100 per title), not worth it.
I meant that there isn't an engine, game builder, or commands specifically for 2D, but I realize that it can be done with the 3D engine. And you're right about the cost of Torque. That's a good point. Thanks!
Dont forget cocos2d for 2d games. It is quite comprehensive and pretty mature.
SIO2 is also really well done. There are some other posts on the forum about it.
Unity has potential, but the big killer for me is that it needs to have the .NET runtime packaged with it. An empty Unity game is already 8 megs! That means you are limited to iTunes and WiFi download right off the bat which could prove to lose a decent amount of sales.
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Originally Posted by rpstro02
I meant that there isn't an engine, game builder, or commands specifically for 2D, but I realize that it can be done with the 3D engine. And you're right about the cost of Torque. That's a good point. Thanks!
I meant that there isn't an engine, game builder, or commands specifically for 2D, but I realize that it can be done with the 3D engine. And you're right about the cost of Torque. That's a good point. Thanks!
The IDE is the game builder... Even more powerful than Torgue And for 2D, they even have 2-3 examples... A 2D game is nothing more than 3D ojects layed out in a X/Y plane with no Z movement. With Torque, you need to purchase 2 different engines, 3D and 2D, with Unity you simply buy the 3D IDE and you are done, then buy the iPhone modual to publish iPhone apps (just like iTorque). So in the end, Torque is more expensive for less functionality.
Dont forget cocos2d for 2d games. It is quite comprehensive and pretty mature.
SIO2 is also really well done. There are some other posts on the forum about it.
Unity has potential, but the big killer for me is that it needs to have the .NET runtime packaged with it. An empty Unity game is already 8 megs! That means you are limited to iTunes and WiFi download right off the bat which could prove to lose a decent amount of sales.
Not exacly, you can strip down the binary if you own the pro version. So you start Indie, then move to Pro as needed.
PS: 5 games in the top 10 are Unity! Zero are Torque, that should say something
There are 3 iPhone demos that ship with iTGB, but none in the App store.
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$100 license per title
This no longer applies. This fee was removed from the license about a month ago. You just pay for the base engines now
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250 + 250 + 500 + (100 per title)
Wrong on two points. I don't know where you got the double $250 from, but all you have to purchase is TGB Pro and iTGB. Also, as stated above, no $100 per game fees.
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New owners of Garage Games suck and lack support
Care to provide an example? The developers of the engine are in the forums answering questions all the time, as well as working the weekends to provide support. If you want to spew vitriol, you should get your facts straight and back up your words.
Go take a look at their forums, the engine is bug ridden and support is nowhere to be found. The main forums are hidden (because GG doesnt want people who didnt fork out the cash to see all the issues it has), but some registered users complain in both places. Do your own research, I assume you're a big boy.
I've tried their engine for a PC game a while back, and yeah, the engine is slow and full of bugs. Sure I have the code, but if I wanted to FIX someone elses bugs I would have just rolled my own to begin with.
The Unity folks have a much better handle on the iPhone, it makes sense considering the MAC has always been their market, so they are much more familiar with Cocoa.
PS: Stop trying to cloud the fact that Torque is more expensive than Unity.
I'm sorry I should have given full disclosure, to begin with. I forgot to mention that I actually work at GG and am in the forums everyday answering iTorque questions
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because GG doesnt want people who didnt fork out the cash to see all the issues it has)
Hearsay and ignorance. This has been the way GG manages forums since the beginning. Private forums for those who have access to the source code.
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Stop trying to cloud the fact that Torque is more expensive than Unity.
How? By listing the actual costs of the engine? You said something incorrect, and I corrected you by posting FACTUAL values.
Nothing I've said so far is misleading or untrue. iTGB has a very rough release, which is why I involved myself in the project. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but I thought I would join in to at least provide the truth to people who are asking for it.
If I made a mistake on the price, then I admit I was wrong about that. However....
If you are an employee, then I suggest you go help your pissed off customers (and yes, I am one of them... formerly), cause the new owners of GG have driven it into the dirt as far as many people are concerned.
Second, your engine for the iPhone has serious performance issues and bugs. Who do you think you are kidding?
Cost? Not only is your engine more expensive, you guys are constantly telling everyone "Well you have the code, fix the bug yourself". So the cost to use your product is much higher. Someone, like me, who wants to license an engine is doing so to REDUCE the cost and TIME to market. Telling me to fix it myself is not acceptable, if an engine has serious issues (like yours does), I would rather not buy it. So no bud, the excuse "at least we ship the code" means nothing to me. If I wanted to work on boilerplate and engine code, I would revamp my own engine for the embedded device market.
There you go bud, that is why I say your engine sucks when compared to Unity. Say what you will, just don't try to tell me that I am not entitled to my opinion. Of course youre not going to agree, but thats because you aren't unbiased, I am.
And go back, spread the word to your new bosses.
Oh and how about you make your private forums PUBLIC like Unity does? Want me to answer why you wont do that? Bah... you're a waste of the bits that make up your replies.
PS: In no way is Unity perfect, not at all. But it is leaps and bounds ahead of you in performance and stability. This doesnt suprise me, no doubt their engineers have more background with Apple/Mac, and this carries over to the iPhone.
PPS: The prices are no secret for either engine, simple math shows you guys cost more price wise.
Last edited by Slayer5150; 03-16-2009 at 01:56 PM.
By the way, you guys spend more time on 3rd party sites trying to defend what your engine lacks than you do supporting your own site. I have not seen that behaviour from the Unity people. Then again, you dont see that from the mac community itself, so again im not suprised.
Lets look at the facts when it comes to the engines. People are free to review them both, for free right? Why dont you open up your private forums so that people can also review your support????
Last edited by Slayer5150; 03-16-2009 at 01:59 PM.
Then I suggest you go help your pissed off customers...
At over 2,000 posts, writing documentation, working the weekends, and vetting e-mails sent directly to me, I do just that.
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...cause the new owners of GG have driven it into the dirt as far as many people are concerned.
Umm, the branch that manages GarageGames.com and Tech&Tools (Torque engines), has not changed with the exception of hiring new developers to add to the engines. According to most people? You and who else? Again, you post slanderous remarks with no backup. I know this is not uncommon for message boards, but wow...you take it to the extreme. You have absolutely no clue what's going on, do you? We have been quite transparent about what goes on at GarageGames. You put on blinders, which is your decision. We did not put them on you.
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"Well you have the code, fix the bug yourself"
Since you used a quote, can I have a link to it? Preferably in the iTGB forums.
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...that is why I say your engine sucks
That's your own opinion, which you are entitled to. That's not what you originally said, though. You made a personal attack against me, and posted incorrect information. Forgive me for being the voice of reason and professionalism
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And go back, spread the word to your new bosses.
I do not have new bosses. I have a manager, who hired me due to my dedication to helping our users. I'm sure you keep referencing the IAC merger without coming out and saying it. Again, you have no idea what goes on. Name something that has changed at GarageGames.com due to that merger. I'm waiting...
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make your private forums PUBLIC like Unity does?
Because we are not Unity. We have changed a lot of things over the past few years, but we've been around longer than Unity and we are not going to just copy them. That's an insult to both companies. They have their way of doing things, which work well, and we have our's
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you're a waste of the bits that make up your replies.
And there we have it. Your average pissed off user who could not ship a game, reverting to personal attacks when they cannot counter factual arguments posed as rational discussion.
By the way, you guys spend more time on 3rd party sites trying to defend what your engine lacks than you do supporting your own site. I have not seen that behaviour (sic) from the Unity people.
Vice versa, you are spending a lot of time on sites bashing a company and people instead of working on your game. I'm a GarageGames employee, and part of my job is community management. If you insist on attacking me, do your research and see what you come up with. You'd be surprised at what I do for our users. I'm also good at multi-tasking. In the time I've spent replying to your inaccurate and hate-filled posts, I've written 2 docs, helped 5 people in the forums, and sent out 3 e-mails.
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Then again, you dont (sic) see that from the mac community itself, so again im(sic) not suprised (sic).
@rpstro02 - I'm sorry I hijacked your thread, but I'm sure you understand the need one has to defend himself.
Our community manager at GarageGames (who also owns a license to Unity3D), has a very wise notion about game engines. You should use the one that fits you best.
Since there are demos for Unity3D and TGB, you can take them for a spin to see what kind of work flow they offer. After testing the base engines, and working with the iPhone SDK, you will be better prepared to make a decision.
If you do not have time to try out trial versions, go with your gut instinct. You seem to have a good grasp of what each engine offers. Should you go with iTGB, you can contact me directly for support (something I offer to all our users).
Whichever you go with, I hope you have a good experience, ship a great game, and enjoy the process.
@rpstro02 - I'm sorry I hijacked your thread, but I'm sure you understand the need one has to defend himself.
Our community manager at GarageGames (who also owns a license to Unity3D), has a very wise notion about game engines. You should use the one that fits you best.
Since there are demos for Unity3D and TGB, you can take them for a spin to see what kind of work flow they offer. After testing the base engines, and working with the iPhone SDK, you will be better prepared to make a decision.
If you do not have time to try out trial versions, go with your gut instinct. You seem to have a good grasp of what each engine offers. Should you go with iTGB, you can contact me directly for support (something I offer to all our users).
Whichever you go with, I hope you have a good experience, ship a great game, and enjoy the process.
Exctly! Except for one huge thing, he can't take your "support" for a spin now can he? Why? Cause rpstro02, GG hides their support behind private forums. So think to yourself "Hmm, now why would a company hide their support forums from the people who want to review their engine?"
Selective reading, awesome. I told him to take the base engines for a spin.
I've already stated why we have private forums for our engines, but you just refuse to acknowledge a rational comment. It's something we've always done, and mainly because users post a lot of source code.
In fact, there are parts of the forums where someone will submit an entire engine with modifications for review. If that forum were publicly open, anyone could just steal the code and not pay for anything.
There's just no talking to you. You obviously refuse to really read the content in my posts, and at this point repeating myself is a waste of time.
Others who will read through this thread are going to compare my comments to your's. I posted calm explanations and corrections, whereas you posted personal insults, hearsay, flat out lies, and your own flawed personal experience.
I wish you could have had a better experience with iTGB, but if this is what you have turned into I'm very glad I do not have to deal with you in our forums anymore. Seriously, go use what you want to use. Making games is very challenging, but rewarding. Wasting your time on a message board perpetuating the hate machine is not.
If the OP has questions about iTorque, I'll gladly answer them. There's nothing more to say with you, since you just want to go down swinging (blindly). I already allowed myself to get baited into a discussion where the other has no desire to be rational. No more
There's just no talking to you. You obviously refuse to really read the content in my posts, and at this point repeating myself is a waste of time.
Welcome to the forum, Mich.
You've discovered in a two or three posts what some others discover in perhaps a few more exchanges. There's no arguing with some of the members here. They're always right, no matter what. Get used to it. Just accept it. Don't bother presenting those pesky "facts", because they will be ignored, as the "expert" member's opinion is the only thing that matters.
The only thing I haven't seen in this thread yet is the juvenile name-calling, so be prepared for that.
My skin has thickened over the years participating in multiple game dev communities. One user in a forum is nothing compared to a few dozen hitting you all at once (GG community venting). I know when to walk away
I have been browsing other threads here, and I'm very happy about the content in general. I'm rolling some of my own tech, as well as enhancing iTGB. These forums are just what I was looking for in regard to neutral iPhone dev discussion.
You've discovered in a two or three posts what some others discover in perhaps a few more exchanges. There's no arguing with some of the members here. They're always right, no matter what.
Hey Kalimba, we PURCHASED and tested these engines. They are not arguments, but opinions based on what we experienced with the product and lack of customer support.
Notice how our buddy Mich can not point me to a location to download a demo of the iPhone version of their engine. Do not base your purchase on the TGB demo, make sure you see the iPhone version run your code first.
If you want unbiased opinions ask customers, not some company rep throwing out a bunch of trash and can not even tell you where to download the IPHONE demo of their product.
Last edited by Slayer5150; 03-16-2009 at 04:25 PM.
Just to clear things up, Mich says that there are 3 iPhone demos that ship with iTGB. I think Mich meant that there are 3 iPhone sample programs that ship with iTGB. What I meant by there is no "demo" is that I cannot try out iTGB without purchasing it for $500. Is this correct? I can try out everything including the iPhone package in the Unity demo.
It would be helpful if iTGB forums were open. I did a search on the Garage Games forums and I found several post titles I was interested in but couldn't access because they were private. Open forums have helped me a great deal in evaluating Unity. I can see what people are having problems with and what its capabilities are.
Yeah Mich did a lot of lip flapping, but notice he does not tell you where you can download an iPhone copy of iTGB. Know why? There isn't a demo, you can only demo TGB, so you will not see the performance (and bugs) on the iPhone version.
Mich is funny, if he can show me where I can download a 30 day demo of iTGB, I would like to test the performance, maybe it has improved, but alas Mich cannot.
Hey Mich, I was able to download a demo of Unity iPhone. So now, in order to compare the two products, I want iTGB demo I can play with.
Come on Mich, flap those lips again and tell me how I can demo your iPhone product with my code? I'm trying to play fair and follow your advice and check both products, but I already came up short, I cannot download iTGB. Gee... all the lip flapping about how Slayer lied about the performance, well put your product where your mouth is, if not, shut up about comparing the two.
rpstro02: There are three products IF you want the 3d and 2d engines. iTGE (not out yet) is the 3D engine, iTGB is 2D (only) for $250 and requires that you also purchase TGB Pro ($500). So the cheapest GG deal is iTGB + TGB for $750. Basically 2D only for 750. But as you see, you cannot download a trial of iTGB, nor can you sample the customer service (poor) received by the paying customers cause the forums are private. The GG employees, ala Mich, talks a lot but cannot produce what the customers (me and you for example) ask for. Now you tell me who is full of crap in this thread
Edit: My honest opinion, years ago GG had a good engine, today it is dated and shows that. The iPhone version has many issues, most of them can be seen in the forums (since you cannot get a trial version and see for yourself, which is a shame). Try emailing GG, maybe you can sample a demo of iTGB.
Last edited by Slayer5150; 03-16-2009 at 08:19 PM.
Unity3D vs. iTorque
And for 2D, they even have 2-3 examples... A 2D game is nothing more than 3D ojects layed out in a X/Y plane with no Z movement. With Torque, you need to purchase 2 different engines, 3D and 2D, with Unity you simply buy the 3D IDE and you are done, then buy the iPhone modual to publish iPhone apps (just like iTorque). So in the end, Torque is more expensive for less functionality.
Linear Mode
