I hired a company through Elance to write the code for a beta site and an iPhone app. They were based in India. After a couple of months of working with them, I started to get the feeling that they were not in this to write code and get paid. After completing and getting paid for two milestones, things got from bad to worse. They set up Skype conferences with me and my team at ungodly hours and never showed up. It happened time after time. They became more and more demanding of late night meetings followed up with early morning ones with other members of their team. They did give me the ad hoc version of the iPhone app but the website work had long stalled. They said they were putting different people on the job, etc.... The ad hoc version was beautiful and worked perfectly. They wanted me to give them my Apple iTunes connect log in information. They said that since it was so technical to upload the app they would do it for me at no additional charge. I had already set up my account with Apple and wanted to do it myself. They tried again to get my log in information. When I said that under no uncertain terms would I give them that information, they got very ugly. I called Apple and they said NO WAY give them any information like that because they could go directly into my banking information. Elance tried to convince me to give it to them for just a few minutes. They said that I could watch them and only let them have it for a while and then change everything. Can you believe that?
They were 200% behind schedule on the app and the website just became too frustrating to deal with them so I asked them if we could consider the app job done and consider them paid in full for the app since I had already paid them far more than I would have in the first place. That's when they informed me that their company policy was to NEVER give up source code even though it was clearly stated in our contract that I would be the owner and I had a full non compete and NDA. I offered to pay them even more for the source code but they refused. So, I took the job into dispute with them through Elance. Elance was less than helpful. After weeks of being ignored by Elance, I informed them that my daughter was just graduated from Law School, was moving back in with me, wanted to work for the public defender's office but since the state was broke had precious little to do but contemplate working for me, and that I was a blogger with a substantial audience. I got a call from the VP within hours. They acted like they would help me. They told me that the company that I had hired had been suspended from their site. I found out later that the suspension happened 1 day after I started negotiating with QBit Systems India Ltd. (the company that I hired through their site). They suspended them for things that they did with other companies but failed to tell me and let me negotiate with them for 3 weeks and eventually hire them. We went through dispute which took several more weeks. I won obviously. I got this email from QBit when they found out about the dispute:
We already have lot of partners who are interested in buying the intellectual property developed, therefore I don’t think so it will be necessary for us to file a case at this juncture.
Therefore we will simply sell it and exit from this dispute.
Thanks for all your support.
Thanks
Vikas Gupta
Elance told me that they had a bunch of QBit's money frozen for other escrows and that I should contact my credit card company and dispute the charges to Elance and that they would not fight it. When QBit found out they sent me some nasty IM's. The money that I paid out is nothing compared to the value of the intellectual property. The day I got the email from QBit telling me they were selling my product to someone else, I got a call from my bank letting me know that my business account had been hacked. I told them about the problem in India and they said it probably has something to do with it. Today I uploaded a video to YouTube that I made within hours of finding out about all of this. Within 30 minutes I got an IM from QBit which was simply a GIF of a 2 pop countdown. It was like a subtle hint that they are watching what I'm doing. I'm not sure if I'm getting paranoid but it seems like they are still accessing my computer. We did a screen share a few months back. I'm trying to get some press about this whole thing. I'm going to make sure I do everything I can so that this doesn't happen to anyone else and bring these parties to justice. Would you forward this email and these links to anyone that you feel would benefit by the information? Here's the YouTube links. YouTube - Outsourcing Horror Story Part 1 YouTube - Outsourcing Horror Story Part 2 I look horrible in the video and I'm a bit embarrassed because it's so emotional but I think it tells the story quite well
Just another reason why it pays to take the time to learn the SDK and develop the app yourself. No outsourced entity is going to give our app the time and attention that it deserves. Their sole motivation is money and not the true success of your app.
Just another reason why it pays to take the time to learn the SDK and develop the app yourself. No outsourced entity is going to give our app the time and attention that it deserves. Their sole motivation is money and not the true success of your app.
...my 2 cents...
I wish I could believe me! Want to give me lessons? I'm a creative, not a technical person. I took me months to write the 75 pages of documentation for the website and the app.
I tried to buy American first. I got ripped off there too. Lot's of sharks in America. I tried for a year and a half. Outsourcing was my last shot.
dang, thats really bad to hear. good job on the original post though. it was interesting to read through. Have you received the source code yet? Might you try changing all your passwords and running some antivirus stuff?
dang, thats really bad to hear. good job on the original post though. it was interesting to read through. Have you received the source code yet? Might you try changing all your passwords and running some antivirus stuff?
No, they said that they NEVER gave out source code even though it was in our contract. I'm on a mac. Do we have "antivirus stuff"?
Another lesson to learn - require full source code as well as a working (ad hoc) version before any milestone payments are made. Then get someone to show you how to build the sources you get to verify it's the same thing. Or pay someone local just to do that part.
Another lesson to learn - require full source code as well as a working (ad hoc) version before any milestone payments are made. Then get someone to show you how to build the sources you get to verify it's the same thing. Or pay someone local just to do that part.
joe
Hmmmm, I'm not sure how to require source code WHILE it's being developed. It was required in our contract. I have the ad hoc version. It's beautiful.
Hmmmm, I'm not sure how to require source code WHILE it's being developed. It was required in our contract. I have the ad hoc version. It's beautiful.
is there a way to get the code from the ad hoc build? lol, turn it to hex, then from hex turn it to regular text then from there go to regular xcode stuff
is there a way to get the code from the ad hoc build? lol, turn it to hex, then from hex turn it to regular text then from there go to regular xcode stuff
I've been told it can't be done. If you can do that, would you like a job?
i'm pretty sure it cant be done either. Its a nice thought, but doubtful. You can strip the signature out of it? Then you might be able to resign it? I'm not sure how all the cracking stuff works, I just have a basic knowledge of the overall process
i'm pretty sure it cant be done either. Its a nice thought, but doubtful. You can strip the signature out of it? Then you might be able to resign it? I'm not sure how all the cracking stuff works, I just have a basic knowledge of the overall process
Well, you can turn it into assembly code pretty easily, but that is it. You can work with that, make changes, but it is a pain to do.
You sound very inexperienced, the fact that you had to ask apple whether there is any risk in giving out your account details. Also the fact you didn't get code before any payment. It is a harsh business world out there, and if people think they can walk all over you, some of them will.
I watched both of your YouTube videos and am truly upset by your experience. These guys truly are the scourge. Although I tend not to be surprised by stories of the unethical behavior of people, I have much sympathy for you.
With the amount of financial damages you incurred, I wonder if you shouldn't try to consult a lawyer or even a private investigator in India. You may be able to give these guys a tough time in India if you have the cash to fight them there.
You sound very inexperienced, the fact that you had to ask apple whether there is any risk in giving out your account details. Also the fact you didn't get code before any payment. It is a harsh business world out there, and if people think they can walk all over you, some of them will.
She did the right thing by asking Apple before she did anything. What an iPhone dev will find obvious is not really the case for others, even including what processes are required for app distribution. There are app sales tracking systems that do ask for iTunes account info as an example of something that I find suspicious, but actually is legitimate practice.
I'm actually quite impressed that she knew quite a bit about the dev jargon, such as provisioning profiles, ad hoc distribution, binary, source code, etc. She's a self-described entrepreneur and creative talent, not a coder. To some, the fact that she was able to find financing for a team and a business plan that ultimately did create a good product says volumes.
What happened to her was just plain unfortunate, and I sympathize with her. America needs more entrepreneurs and those who try to use capital effectively to create commerce.
Well, you can turn it into assembly code pretty easily, but that is it. You can work with that, make changes, but it is a pain to do.
You sound very inexperienced, the fact that you had to ask apple whether there is any risk in giving out your account details. Also the fact you didn't get code before any payment. It is a harsh business world out there, and if people think they can walk all over you, some of them will.
yeah, after consulting the google more, it sounds like its gonna be rough to get anything of real use from the ad hoc version.
Maybe you should be a bit nicer when you're on the boards. I've seen several of your posts that are inflammatory. I know you weren't directing the last comment at me, but this dev is in a rough spot, post accordingly.
I watched both of your YouTube videos and am truly upset by your experience. These guys truly are the scourge. Although I tend not to be surprised by stories of the unethical behavior of people, I have much sympathy for you.
With the amount of financial damages you incurred, I wonder if you shouldn't try to consult a lawyer or even a private investigator in India. You may be able to give these guys a tough time in India if you have the cash to fight them there.
Thank you. I'm in contact with a few lawyers. I'm looking for one in India as well. Your support means a lot. I've gotten very few kind words over this.
yeah, after consulting the google more, it sounds like its gonna be rough to get anything of real use from the ad hoc version.
Maybe you should be a bit nicer when you're on the boards. I've seen several of your posts that are inflammatory. I know you weren't directing the last comment at me, but this dev is in a rough spot, post accordingly.
Please realize that I am an idea person and new to technology. I was a hairdresser before this. I was loyal to Nokia because I didn't want to learn how to import my contacts into another phone. I had a good idea and I raised a small amount of money. I read several books and spent countless hours researching, consulting with experts, attending relevant conferences and conventions, everything I could to try to get up to speed. When I started I didn't even know what HTML was. I matched the investor with my life savings. But that's not the bigger issue. The bigger issue is, I lived, ate and breathed this idea for over two years. I have loyal employees that sacrificed better pay to work for me because they believed in me and the idea. I'm tired, I'm emotional, I'm a wreck. I think it's obvious if you watched the video. I apologize to anyone that feels offended by what I've said. The thing is, this idea is a platform for users to take their creativity and broadcast themselves in a way that hasn't been done yet. I wanted this for the world. I wanted this for me. Not in a selfish way but I planned to be a user too. I wanted this platform for me too. At one point I was ready to pay the high price just to have it even if no one else used it. It's the kind of idea that you get and you think.......hmmm....why hasn't anyone come up with that yet? I WANT THAT. I always believed that if you had talent, if you had drive, if you put in the blood, sweat and tears that you would, in the end, achieve what you set out to do. That isn't true. Humans can be evil. They might take advantage of you. I don't want to believe it but it's unavoidable now. How will we ever progress as a race?
I hired a company through Elance to write the code for a beta site and an iPhone app. They were based in India. After a couple of months of working with them, I started to get the feeling that they were not in this to write code and get paid. After completing and getting paid for two milestones, things got from bad to worse.
Thanks for taking the time to post the cautionary tale. Hope things work out in the end.
You should have looked for a respected dev, eg. Skylar, or gojohnnyboi.
I'm going to guess that she probably DID go for a respected dev - that's what feedback and reputation are for. I also believe that elance bears a burden here too, as facilitator (read, general contractor) they MUST report failures by their subcontractors to all parties involved.
And, of course, IANAL -- but her daughter is
I hope that this works out for you, qbit clearly had no intention of ever delivering a product. Their only desire was to find a product someone else had done all the legwork for and then implement it as their own. Our only hope now (after legal recourse, of course) is that some terrible plague afflict these a-holes.
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One more thing, please let Apple know of your project, find a way to talk to their itunes and legal staff so that this application CANNOT be sold in the app store.
Last edited by specialk; 07-14-2009 at 10:43 AM.
Reason: addendum
I'm going to guess that she probably DID go for a respected dev - that's what feedback and reputation are for. I also believe that elance bears a burden here too, as facilitator (read, general contractor) they MUST report failures by their subcontractors to all parties involved.
And, of course, IANAL -- but her daughter is
I hope that this works out for you, qbit clearly had no intention of ever delivering a product. Their only desire was to find a product someone else had done all the legwork for and then implement it as their own. Our only hope now (after legal recourse, of course) is that some terrible plague afflict these a-holes.
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One more thing, please let Apple know of your project, find a way to talk to their itunes and legal staff so that this application CANNOT be sold in the app store.
Thank you. You're very perceptive. I hate thinking about all the negative energy that will be spent on this. Yes, I called Apple and they said they really couldn't ban someone from uploading apps or really spend time checking. I can't blame them. They also said they'd never had this happen. Lucky me!
Did you only get one test (ad hoc) version? Were there intermediate milestones before then that you paid them for?
joe
They were building my website and the app to support the site. They had 6 milestones. We stalled out at 2. I told them to forget the website because it was clear that was going no where and to just give me the binary for the app and we'd call it even and I'd drop the dispute. They said they would never give up the code. I know, it doesn't make sense to me either. I then offered even more money even though I had already paid them way more than I would have just for the app. They said no again.
They were building my website and the app to support the site. They had 6 milestones. We stalled out at 2. I told them to forget the website because it was clear that was going no where and to just give me the binary for the app and we'd call it even and I'd drop the dispute. They said they would never give up the code. I know, it doesn't make sense to me either. I then offered even more money even though I had already paid them way more than I would have just for the app. They said no again.
I'm sorry to hear about your problems. Did your contract state you only got the binary? The binary is not the readable code, but your wording suggests it is. The binary is the app itself, which you only have an ad hoc version of. Just want to make sure they're not getting you on a technicality.
Outsourcing Horror Story
I'm a creative, not a technical person. I took me months to write the 75 pages of documentation for the website and the app.
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